And this feeling of meeting the mean traders, and they would always say, they had this wonderful line calculated to put you completely at your ease.
 They would say, "I am your friend. I am not like all the others."
 [laughter]
 Oh, great! Wonderful! I feel so much better now.
 And that's what these elves are saying.
 They're saying, "Don't listen to him or her. I'm your friend. I'm not like all the others."
 And you're clearly the new kid in town.
 I mean, you can barely sit up, and they're able to pick your pocket from ten dimensions you don't even know exist.
 So you're trying to sort this out in good order.
 But, Tara, I wanted to go back to the idea of assimilation, that in order to have this experience and so forth,
 that it's a process of digestion and assimilation.
 And that really is true of giving yourself to that consciousness, whatever you want to call it.
 And that's actually true of all the experiences one has.
 I mean, if you're reading a book, if you really want to get into it, you have to totally digest it.
 I mean, it's not literal, obviously. You don't read the pages necessarily because you're starving or something.
 But anyway, it is everything that you do that has many real influence has to be digested.
 Well, maybe this has to do with the notion of boundary dissolution,
 that to be digested by something is to actually become it.
 It becomes you.
 And, you know, Yeats said, "We become what we behold."
 And, yeah, I mean, it's fairly profound when you think about it.
 I didn't really lean on this thing this morning.
 Well, I mentioned it about the diet and the copulation and the religion and the psilocybin.
 But the notion here is that feminism is actually a state of dietary neuroregulation in the species, if you want.
 And that because the feminine I associate with this state of boundary dissolution,
 or potential state of boundary dissolution, because feminine sexuality is based on the acceptance of penetration
 and the experience of giving birth is the experience of heavy boundary reorganization and so forth.
 So the earth actually talked to the human beings through the diet.
 I mean, it's crude and awful to say it that way.
 But, you see, because the psilocybin was in the diet, because the people were tribal,
 because there was pressure on hunting success and sexual success and all this,
 the people were in a state of maximum attention directed toward the environment.
 And coming at them out of the environment was a mind, not an abstract mind,
 not as we imagine God, an old man with a beard, an abstract prince, but all of this.
 But actually, you know, a friend and a comfort, a feminine thing, not remote at all,
 not the creature of theology, but a creature of experience.
 And these feminine values were the values of the human group,
 and they were a kind of objectification, realization of the values in nature itself.
 And getting away from that broke this bond that was very real.
 And this breaking of this bond traumatized us.
 I mean, you can even use the language of dysfunctional relationships,
 childhood trauma, abuse, that sort of thing.
 That in the infancy of the human species, there is a tremendous traumatic event,
 the tearing away of the human tribal family from this embeddedness in larger vegetable nature.
 And then once that happened, we had to make it up by ourselves,
 and we did a botched job of it.
 I mean, religion just became a way of berating people.
 Ethics became control. Government became coercion.
 Education became the inculcation of past mistakes, so forth and so on.
 Understandably, because we were--you could almost think of us as an ant society
 whose queen had been killed, but we don't notice it because it's not part of our species.
 We actually were an incipient symbiote to this invisible thing,
 and it still exists. It still exists in whatever dimensions are its own.
 I mean, is it the mushroom? Is it the sum total of organic life on the planet?
 Is it an extraterrestrial mind somehow here so long that it's as old as the continents?
 Whatever it is, it's still there.
 Well, then what human history and outbreaks of messianic hysteria
 and the prompting of visionary dreams and all of the stuff that sets us sitting bolt upright
 in the middle of the night is, you know, this thing can reach into the human world
 haltingly, hesitatingly, but plaintively, probingly,
 trying to bring us back, calling us to some kind of return,
 trying to reconnect the broken circuit of history.
 And this is what is the cause of all the nostalgia for paradise,
 the belief in a vanished Eden, a lost Atlantis, so forth and so on,
 and all the utopian yearning, the belief that, you know, the extraterrestrials will come
 and kiss it and make it well, that we will somehow be rescued from our own folly,
 that dead Galilean politicians will walk again among us,
 and all of these ideas that are overthrow of natural law
 for the purpose of saving us in a drama of cosmic redemption.
 Well, it's like a psychological process.
 It's like somebody digging into their stuff.
 And, you know, we all start out with the assumption that our childhood was perfectly normal
 and our parents were fine people, and then you start digging and separating and working and looking,
 and then the picture becomes much more complicated.
 And I think the human attitude toward drugs, the fact that we can addict to 40 or 50 substances, and do.
 I mean, yes, other animals form addictions of various sorts, but nothing like this.
 I mean, clearly we are in a state of permanent chemical disequilibrium.
 I mean, we will gnaw door handles, sniff paint thinner, you know, tobacco, heroin, you name it,
 thousands of alkaloids, bury, you know, dig up stuff the pig wouldn't eat,
 and then pickle that, and then eat that.
 I mean, all this anxiety and disease around the problem of food is that we're looking.
 We're looking for something.
 Well, then every time somebody finds it, then a huge shriek goes up from the body politic
 that it's illegal what you found, it's unacceptable, you know, this behavior cannot be tolerated.
 People who smoke joints of marijuana, the chief of police in Los Angeles wants them shot like dogs
 in public places in order to keep public order.
 Well, what we've got here, folks, is a lot of serious anxiety around states of mind, clearly.
 And it's a rupture from the synthetic.
 I mean, it's a rupture from the organic, creating totally synthetic realities.
 And we love it because it's part of what happens when you're separated from the organic.
 You mean a rupture into history of this material?
 Well, I mean, because they have been separated from psychedelics and from the organic,
 it's like being separated from the organic life.
 It's the same thing as being separated from nature, from themselves.
 And then they're open to synthetic realities on every level.
 Well, it's an extreme case of alienation over like a thousand years.
 I mean, yes, we're so alienated, we don't even know how alienated we are.
 I mean, things built into our language, like the subject-object dualism,
 the assumption of science, you know, that spirit doesn't exist.
 This is what they've been busy at for the last 400 years, is exercising spirit.
 But from the late medieval cosmology, we inherit a world entirely animate with spirit
 and angelic beings running up ladders and performing all kinds of miraculous tasks.
 And then with Descartes, you know, you get this grudging admission that,
 well, maybe the soul touches matter at just one place in the pineal gland of each one of us.
 There's this magic trip hammer, and there the little angel performs the forbidden transduction.
 And then 50 years after Descartes, then they say, well, no, no, that was the naive part of his thinking.
 We're going to get rid of that.
 And now we understand that spirit was an illusion of the ontologically naive mind,
 and there's only force and momentum.
 And then you have permission to commit all kinds of atrocities against nature.
 Although the permission to commit these atrocities has been present in the Western tradition for a very, very long time.
 I mean, you go back to Gilgamesh, and you discover that what's going on in Gilgamesh is that Gilgamesh rejects the goddess.
 And the goddess sends the bull as her emissary to Gilgamesh, which I take to be a symbol of the mushroom, obviously.
 And Gilgamesh rejects the cosmic bull, rejects the goddess, and then he gets his shaman friend, Enkidu,
 who's very reluctant about this enterprise, and he says, you know what we need to do?
 I have a great idea. Let's go into the wilderness, and you'll help me, and we'll cut down the tree of life.
 And this is what they do.
 This is on cuneiform tablets that are dug out of the Ur level of our civilization.
 And what they're plotting and scheming is two clowns want to cut down the tree of life.
 So this alienation goes very deep.
 That's why the psychedelic experience is illegal and repressed and suspect.
 It's because nothing less than the whole kit and caboodle of this civilization hangs in the balance against it.
 It is forbidden to know that the dynamics of the mind have such depth and breadth.
 We are supposed to live in a narrow canyon of consciousness, walled in between awake and asleep,
 and anything else is considered pathological.
 And we make a little place for artists as long as they don't get too uppity or obscene,
 and otherwise it's all closed off.
 Well, you know, breaking into this, breaking through this, is this recapturing of the birthright that I've been talking about.
 Other comments? Yeah.
 Every time I eat mushrooms, I go through three things that happen to me that invariably happen, physical things.
 And I wonder what you make of them. Or if you have them, I know you have a couple.
 One is the tearing. I always tear, and then I always go through a phase where I start to yawn.
 And the yawning, then I start making a sound. It's like my head becomes an echo chamber.
 And it always happens to me. And I play with that sound a lot.
 And then I heard the Gyodo monks. And I go, "That's the sound."
 Same sound. And I've heard you discuss the sound before.
 Well, even in the pharmacology textbooks, the yawning gets in for psilocybin.
 It makes you yawn, they say. And it certainly does make you yawn.
 The tearing, it also makes you tear. It makes your nose run a little bit, about at the 40-minute mark.
 The tearing, I associate with the actual moments when the visions are occurring.
 It seems as though your eyes produce a lot of water.
 And the tone is, yeah, pretty basic to the presentation of these things.
 The way it works for me, usually, is I take it on an empty stomach in silent darkness.
 And at about the hour and ten-minute mark, there's visual streaming.
 Nothing much before. I mean, running nose, restlessness, need to go to the bathroom.
 One of the things you don't want to do is, once it begins, I think it's very important to stay still.
 And you will get into loops where it would be better to be downstairs.
 It would be better to be on the other side of the room. It would be better.
 This is the small, tinny voice of true madness trying to push you off your point.
 And you just say, "No, no, it wouldn't be better downstairs. And it wouldn't be better across the room. And it's better right here."
 And then, at an hour and 20 minutes, you get visual streaming, which are these--
 I've also noticed they occur after orgasm.
 They're like purple, after-image, kind of amorphous, jelly-bean-shaped lights that are passing by.
 Not very interesting. But they indicate the onset of something is happening.
 The synapse is coming to the potential for the thing.
 And then, I usually smoke cannabis to sort of push it over the edge.
 And at a certain point, I know that if I now will take a huge hit of cannabis, the whole thing will just come apart over moments.
 And then it does. And it usually is-- you sort of see it coming, like a sandstorm or something.
 I mean, it's 10 miles high and 100 miles wide.
 And it just rolls toward you, and there's nowhere to run.
 And I usually just have a few moments to lie down, is what I basically do.
 That seems a good strategy at that point.
 [laughter]
 A plan. I lie down.
 [laughter]
 So then I do that, and that sort of helps a little.
 And it just hits. And you would swear that everybody from Vancouver to San Diego just hurled themselves underneath their desk.
 Because it's like an asteroid striking the earth or something.
 I mean, everything gives way. You have these images of--
 First there's light, then there's heat, then the instruments which record light and heat themselves disintegrate and vaporize and begin to move outward.
 And there's just a linguistic zero zone where language will not operate.
 It's like ground zero. And then this goes on for a long, long time.
 And the viewpoint keeps telescoping back until finally the viewpoint is outside the blast zone.
 And then you can begin an inward description of it.
 Say, "Oh, it's like this. It's like that. It's telling me this. It's telling me that."
 Other times it's this Irish Elfin band thing where they come literally tiptoeing through the tulips.
 And you hear it far off, like the tinkling of bells.
 And then it just gets louder and louder and nearer and nearer.
 And then you see it, and then it's around you.
 And it's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon directed by Tristan Zara or something like that.
 It's quite zany, unpredictable.
 The thing that always impressed me about psychedelics was the way in which it could convince you that you could never think of this.
 And that was the stamp of authenticity, the fact that it was moving faster than your own imagination.
 Astonishing you, making you laugh, frightening you, leading you on, teasing you.
 It's very strange. There's nothing else like it.
 You know, the Arabs used to say of the city of Isfahan in Iran in the 10th century, that it was half the world because of its vaulted domes and minarets.
 That if you hadn't seen Isfahan, half the world lay before you.
 Well, it's literally true of psychedelics.
 I mean, half at least of the world lies over yonder in these strange dimensions.
 And they're not inaccessible, you know. They're very accessible.
 You don't have to spend 20 years around the ashram.
 And yet, my goodness, we maintain decorum around them and don't break protocol and behave ourselves in the presence of it.
 Those of us who are supposed experts or accounted great explorers of it, spend nine times as much time talking about it as doing it, you may be sure.
 So, you know, it's just a kind of a cultural blind spot, seeming to a person like myself very important, to someone else extraordinarily trivial.
 I mean, there was even a book published on the drug problem recently called "America's Great Drug War" by Treadwell.
 Who's a good guy. He wants legalization. He's a good guy.
 But there's no entry for psychedelic drugs. No entry for LSD. No entry for mescaline.
 It's not what they're talking about. Not what they're worrying about.
 Even the people who want drugs legalized do it with this kind of, "Okay."
 You know, this attitude. "We're defeated. We'll legalize drugs. Screw it. That's it. Go ruin yourselves now."
 There's no notion of hope. No notion of a pharmacological engineering of consciousness to any reasonable end.
 It's just, you know, if you're not willing to go it alone with God's grace, well then you're just consigned to the road to hell.
 Yeah.
 I have some friends that have used MDMA with ketamine and 2C-B. I was wondering if anyone had used that.
 I'm sure someone has used it with mushrooms, but that's crazy.
 MDMA with mushrooms?
 Let me see if I can remember. I can't really remember anybody specifically doing that.
 All these things get done. I sort of try to warn people off of these things, and I'm a terrible party pooper.
 Because I'm just such an obsessed person that all I really care about is this very narrow psychedelic effect.
 There are a lot of weird altered states of consciousness around. Many of them drug-induced, and a whole spectrum of them alcohol-induced.
 I can see a combination of what's accessing the mushrooms.
 How was that?
 Well, I felt that right away that the mushroom was just, felt sullied.
 Sullied.
 Well, it was sullied, but I felt I violated his relationship.
 Because I had cultivated this relationship with the mushroom.
 I said, "What is this doing here?"
 Who is this cheap trollop that you dragged in?
 It wasn't pleasant, because they both were at odds.
 And it was just an energy block.
 Yeah, synergies are a sort of unexplored area, because there are so many of them.
 You all understand synergies are what happens when you rub two drugs or more together.
 And very weird things happen, but they're not very controllable or repeatable.
 What I always say to people about choosing drugs and strategies for bringing drugs into your life,
 and your program of spiritual development or self-exploration or whatever,
 is the most interesting drugs are the ones that occur in plants.
 That the occurrence of a drug in a plant shows that it has a certain affinity to organic life.
 But that doesn't mean that there aren't hellacious toxins in some plants.
 I mean, there's curare, there's strychnine, there's cyanide.
 These are plant by-products as well.
 But nevertheless, as a first pass, it's important that a compound occur in a plant.
 Well, then the next thing is, does it have a history of human usage?
 And the interesting ones almost all do.
 Psilocybin, used in Mexico for millennia, other parts of the world.
 It's probably for a very long time, although the evidence is less clear.
 Mass peyote has a long history of usage in the American Southwest.
 Cannabis goes back millennia, so does opiate use.
 So then, do these things have a history of human usage, and even specifically shamanic usage?
 And then, to my mind, the really interesting question,
 do they have an affinity to ordinary brain chemistry?
 Do they, because, and I mentioned this this morning,
 the strongest drugs are the ones most like ordinary brain chemistry.
 The most extreme case being DMT.
 DMT only lasts seven to ten minutes,
 and yet it's the most profound dislocation of reality that you can undergo.
 Well, why is it that it is both so profound and so quickly quenched in the organism?
 It's because in the human brain, bio-pathways exist which recognize and degrade this very readily,
 because they are there all the time performing this function on DMT.
 So, to my mind, it isn't that you sail out toward the most synthetic or complex or chelated molecules,
 but that in fact these things are highly suspect.
 That what we're trying to do is actually tweak consciousness,
 do reverence to the physical brain,
 but tweak consciousness as little as possible to get the desired effect.
 One of the really fascinating things about DMT, I think, is that once someone has smoked it,
 once someone has had this experience, you can have a dream in which it is introduced into the dream as a theme, DMT,
 and then you actually smoke it in the dream and it actually happens in the dream.
 And I don't know of any other drug that this is true of,
 and what it says to me is that even though this is an extremely radical psychedelic experience,
 apparently the chemistry that is the precondition for it is just under the surface,
 almost within reach of conscious awareness.
 I mean, I've sat down at times and thought about smoking DMT and tried to invoke it,
 and never succeeded the way I've succeeded in a lucid dream doing that.
 But it shows, I think, that the chemistry is very close to ordinary metabolism.
 I'm interested in knowing about DMT. It's not the same thing as mushrooms, is it?
 Is it organically formed?
 Yes, it's closely related. In the chemical families of the hallucinogens,
 you have the indole family, which is a fairly large family,
 and it includes the lyserginides that are the LSD-type drugs,
 the beta-carbolines, which are MAO inhibitors and occur in Banisteriopsis capi,
 and the aboga alkaloids, which are psychedelic aphrodisiacs from West Africa,
 and then the tryptamine group.
 And the tryptamine group is the largest group, and it comprises psilocybin in the mushroom
 and DMT in the leaves of certain bushes and in the barks of certain South American trees,
 and then it also occurs in other plant genera, but not in very high concentration.
 And toads also.
 5-methoxydmt occurs in toads. 5-methoxydmt is interesting.
 It's recently had a kind of vogue because people discovered they could collect the exudate from the toad
 and dry it on their windshield and scrape it off and then smoke it up or sell it for about $80 a gram.
 That's a big thing in Florida.
 It's a big thing in Florida.
 They're usually looking for mushrooms, and now they're out at the pharmacy.
 They're out there licking toads.
 Well, nobody actually licks toads.
 That's just a slander.
 What you do is you milk the toad onto the glass of your four-wheel-drive vehicle windshield
 and then let it dry in the sun and then scrape it up and collect it in a film canister.
 I know people who really like 5-meo-DMT.
 I don't care for it.
 I find it weirdly empty.
 It's not visionary like DMT.
 DMT is a chaos of hallucination.
 It is the most hallucinogenic compound there is.
 It's just hallucinations stacked on top of each other.
 In every angle, tiny demons are seen to be performing elaborate calisthenic exercises,
 and much else is happening.
 When you do 5-meo-DMT, for me at any rate, it was like this feeling,
 "Yes, it feels like DMT. Yes, my heart is racing just like DMT.
 Yes, yes, yes. No, no."
 Nothing happened.
 It didn't do the thing.
 The other piece of information that I feel obligated to pass on to you as a spoil sport
 is that 5-meo is fatal in sheep.
 They just fall over with their little pointed feet trembling in the air.
 I guess it's a way to tell whether or not you're a sheep.
 But it's a little alarming that a mammalian species so substantial and woolly and so forth
 falls over dead when exposed to this stuff that you and your friends are furiously smoking up in the den.
 Why? They don't know exactly. It's neurotoxic.
 These neurotransmitters fall into narrow ranges.
 Sheep are sensitive to a lot of stuff.
 That's why they're always dropping nerve gas on them and stuff like that,
 because they seem to have a fairly narrow tolerance to neurotoxins.
 [unclear]
 It's somewhat alarming. 5-meo DMT, not DMT.
 How different are the types?
 Well, just the difference of that methoxy group in the 5 position.
 But this is why sheep get staggers and die, because they're eating filaris species, grass species,
 with low amounts of 5-meo in them.
 And they're always getting staggers and getting problems with that.
 Anything else?
 [unclear]
 Physical side effects from the mushrooms.
 Well, one of the things you have to understand is that research on psychedelics is illegal
 and not even encouraged among professionals.
 So a lot of what's known is anecdotal.
 Whenever you talk about the side effects of any drug,
 you have to realize that people are highly variable.
 So tolerant and drugs are the area where these differences between people show up dramatically.
 Generally, psilocybin is thought to be a fairly safe compound.
 In terms of crude measures of its safety, it's very safe.
 I mean, for instance, the way pharmacologists talk about drugs is they talk about what's called the LD50.
 This is the horrible concept of if you have 100 mice,
 how much of this drug do you have to give these 100 mice so that 50 die?
 The LD50, the lethal dose 50.
 Well, for psilocybin, it's huge.
 I mean, hundreds of milligrams per kilogram of body weight.
 So that's not a possibility.
 That's the cheerful news from the world of reductionist pharmacology.
 The problem is that when you get out there,
 the whole religion of taking these things holds that science doesn't know what it's talking about.
 So when you get out there and you have the complete and total conviction that you're dying,
 then you have to grapple with this.
 And the thing is, it's always completely convincing.
 And this is just something that it seems to put one through occasionally.
 You don't get much sympathy from straight people.
 I mean, they say, "Well, psychedelic drugs, isn't that the bit?
 You think you're in heaven and you think you're dying, then you think you're God, then you think you're dying.
 I thought that was what is supposed to happen."
 Well, as we know, you try to steer around that.
 There are episodes of fear.
 The only thing you can do is sit it out and breathe it out and sing it out.
 The one thing people shouldn't do is clench up and hunker down and just go into the fetal position.
 What you want to do is circulate a huge amount of energy and oxygen through your body by singing.
 This is what shamans do when they get into difficult places.
 They sing their way through it.
 And it is ambiguous.
 It is complicated to go into these places.
 I don't think anybody voyages repeatedly into these psychedelic spaces without getting into some fairly weird stuff.
 What kind of songs do you sing?
 What kind of songs do I sing?
 They're usually based pretty much on the tonality of the situation and finding a tone that I can ride out of the situation.
 And they're synesthesia.
 A tone like...
 You know, you're feeling it's doing something to you.
 And you can steer your way through weird stuff with this.
 Then usually you become distracted by the act of making the sound itself.
 Because the sound, first of all, you either have or have the illusion that you have tremendous control over the production of tone.
 Your ear gives you a tremendous ability to differentiate these tones.
 And they're appearing in front of you as colors if you're loaded enough.
 So this is the modality in which you can experiment with the visible language.
 You try to syntactically construct out of tonality and glossolalia some kind of convincing modality.
 Most of you have probably heard ayahuasca songs.
 I mean...
 They're driving, is what they are.
 They're repetitious and they're driving.
 And you discover in yourself the capacity for glossolalia, which you can ride.
 You can lift the meaning governor off of the language machinery and just let it spin.
 And it's indefensible as art, but ecstatic to do, you know.
 I mean, I tend to do glossolalias, which are more conversational.
 And I like them because they play with meaning.
 So that kind of stuff sort of sounds like...
 Yeah, I do this alone in the dark.
 And what it is, is it places an edge for the light to follow.
 And you discover meaning in the absence of context.
 And you discover the source of meaning before it is contextually located.
 Don't ask me what these kinds of words mean.
 This is how I learned to talk, hanging out with these semiotics people.
 But it's something like that, you know.
 And I think people did this for hundreds of thousands of years for each other as a form of performance art.
 Long before somebody got the nuts and bolts notion that you could connect an action in the world or a linguistic intent to a sound.
 That we're just set up for this, these small mouth noises.
 And it's tremendously, under the influence of psychedelics, you know, you can make language get up and walk around.
 I mean, you can literally peel it off the ceiling and set it dancing in your presence.
 If any of you have read Robert Graves' book, "The White Goddess,"
 he talks in there about what he calls an ursprach, a visibly beheld language of primal poetry.
 And he thinks our anxiety has to do with the fact that we have lost the true speech.
 And that if you speak the true language, the ursprach, it's a beheld language.
 It doesn't require the conventionalization of dictionaries.
 You know what you mean. And that the loss of this genetic language is what made us so maladaptive and at unease with ourselves.
 Are there practices, spiritual or otherwise, that you do in between psychedelic experiences to prepare oneself or strengthen oneself for the experience?
 I don't know. I mean, I always go into it with knees knocking.
 And just, it's terrifying to me. I know somebody who says the attitude they take mushrooms with is that each time they pray that they can stand more.
 And then some people don't feel that and say that it's easy, that it's silly siben.
 But it isn't all silly siben. I mean, it isn't all dancing bunnies and all that stuff.
 Do you have any idea what makes the difference between people of those two types?
 Oh, it's all, it's very complex. It's almost, you know, it's almost an x-ray of your horoscope.
 It's your own expectation. The time can be wrong. I'm convinced that if the time is wrong, you can be a saint and it will shake your teeth out.
 And yet, what is the wrong time? How do you find it? I used to always throw the yi qing going into it.
 And if the yi qing said don't do it, I just wouldn't do it.
 There's psychic weather. There's low energy. There's personal anxiety. There's also even, I think, the state of the collectivity.
 That, you know, go into it when half the world is on the brink of war. And, you know, it's complex.
 And it's getting more complex in there because of all this knitted together stuff.
 So, it's delicate. It's like skin diving or sailing or one of these things where you have to carefully judge the initial conditions.
 The initial conditions largely determine the end state.
 And then this is what shamanism is, is this ability to judge those conditions and call it right.
 [Audience member] Don't you think that as an ayahuasca diet helps?
 Yeah, I think that what Ken's referring to is in the areas where ayahuasca is a happening thing indigenously,
 the shamans say that the diet is the real precondition for doing it and how long you've kept this diet.
 And, yeah, I think that shamanism, psychedelically practiced, is the art and science of human physiological transformation.
 And that by manipulating indoles and manipulating growth hormones and all of these things,
 a kind of superhuman condition becomes available.
 And this is what these people figured out in these climaxed rain forests.
 They had nothing else going. They weren't into metallurgy.
 They weren't into the purification of chemical elements.
 These other directions that we followed were alien to them.
 And what they gained was a tremendous facility with natural chemistry and diet,
 using the human body as the primary retort, the baseline, the alchemical furnace in which all these transformations were going on.
 I'm convinced that in its native setting, ayahuasca is a telepathic drug.
 I mean, people, small groups of tribal people are taking this thing and making group decisions
 based on group hallucinations, based on the collective database of the tribal group.
 They're seeing the information from a higher dimensional space.
 But this is a kind of telepathy.
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